The Human Element in Criminal Justice Reform

Word of the day: "fair-chance hiring" and "person"

Resource of the day: Young, Nicole & Powell, Gary. (2015). Hiring ex-offenders: A theoretical model. Human Resource Management Review. 25. 298-312. 10.1016/j.hrmr.2014.11.001. 

In a powerful conversation with Dr. Nicole C Jones-Young, we explore the complex challenges facing individuals with criminal histories as they seek to rebuild their lives through meaningful work.

Dr. Jones-Young's path to becoming a leading researcher on criminal justice and employment began unexpectedly. While volunteering with organizations serving unhoused populations, she noticed a pattern of employment gaps linked to incarceration. This observation sparked a passion that eventually led her from human resources to academia, where she now conducts groundbreaking research on fair chance hiring practices as an Associate Professor at Franklin and Marshall College.

The language we use matters profoundly in this space. Dr. Jones-Young emphasizes the importance of person-first terminology, reminding us that a criminal record represents something someone did, not who they fundamentally are. This shift in language reflects a deeper philosophical stance: people deserve to define themselves rather than having identities imposed upon them by society.

We explore the promising landscape of fair chance hiring, highlighting organizations like JP Morgan Chase, Dave's Killer Bread, and The Body Shop that have successfully implemented initiatives to employ people with criminal histories. These companies demonstrate that inclusive hiring practices aren't just socially responsible—they're good business. Yet frustratingly, many companies only lower barriers to entry during labor shortages, revealing that exclusionary policies often stem from convenience rather than necessity.

The conversation takes a sobering turn when discussing the industrial prison complex and its troubling connections to modern-day slavery. Many incarcerated individuals develop skills and earn certifications while serving time, yet these accomplishments are rarely valued by employers upon release—even by the very companies profiting from prison labor.

Despite these challenges, Dr. Jones-Young remains committed to creating change. She shares her self-care strategies, including setting firm boundaries around work communications and finding joy through physical activity. The episode concludes with a lighthearted discussion

Chapters

• 0:54 Meeting Dr. Nicole C Jones-Young
• 10:09 Journey into Criminal Justice Research
• 17:26 Evolution of Terminology and Respect
• 23:38 Fair Chance Hiring Initiatives
• 30:31 Prison Labor and Modern Slavery
• 39:28 Top Five Movies and Life Lessons

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:29

Hello, good people. Welcome to Top 5 DEI, the premier podcast for and about folks who cultivate diversity, equity, inclusion in their craft.

Speaker 2: 0:38

I'm your host, Dr J, and I'm here with Dr Miller, aka the Petty Professor, and I'm Tanae Lambert Nurse Ty.

Speaker 1: 0:46

And I want to thank you all for joining us for today's special guest, dr Nicole C Jones-Young. Dr Nicole C Jones-Young is an associate professor of organizational behavior at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, pennsylvania In Texas. Sometimes we call it.

Speaker 2: 1:04

Lancaster, lancaster.

Speaker 1: 1:06

Lancaster.

Speaker 3: 1:07

Lancaster.

Speaker 1: 1:08

That's right. Lancaster right. But I'm from Chicago originally, so I'm going to say Lancaster, Pennsylvania, that's fair.

Speaker 3: 1:17

I'm from New York originally, so I have no claim to.

Speaker 1: 1:23

Her scholarship is concentrated in the areas of diversity, equity and organizational inclusion, with a specific focus on the employment experiences of individuals who possess a criminal history. Dr Young has published numerous academic journals and journal articles, including two books Now Hiring a Manager's Guide to Employing Applicants with a Criminal History and Employing Our Returning Citizens an Employer-Centric View. She has taught courses in organizational behavior, human resources, organizational inclusion and sports management, and she earned her PhD from the University of Connecticut, her MBA from Fairleigh Dickinson University and her bachelor's from Towson University. Please help me welcome Dr Nicole C Jones-Young. Help me welcome Dr Nicole.

Speaker 3: 2:10

C Jones-Young, dr Jones-Young, thanks for being here. Thank you all for having me.

Speaker 1: 2:15

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2: 2:16

Welcome, welcome. Yes, the pleasure is truly ours. We are such fans of your work and how you highlight the experiences of our vulnerable populations and those most marginalized and teach us and show us, not just in scholarship but also in practical application, how we can make the world a little better for people who deserve and need a shot. Oh, that's nice.

Speaker 3: 2:47

I like it.

Speaker 1: 2:48

And we got to put spec on the name and give flowers while you're here, right?

Speaker 2: 2:52

Yes, what they say yeah, so please tell us how did you get into your field, if you could walk us through your journey of how you got to this point in life.

Speaker 3: 3:04

Okay, so I went to Towson. I was a sports management major. I came out, I worked for the New Jersey Nets so I'm already dating myself a little bit because they're obviously now in Brooklyn but I wanted to move into human resources and, believe it or not, we didn't have an HR department. So I decided to go back for my MBA in HR and thought I needed some more like hands-on experience. So I started volunteering with this organization that helps people who are currently unhoused and they had a computer lab and they needed help with like resume review and you know, mock interviewing, like all those things, job searching, and so I would go there once a week and help different people that would come in and I started noticing, kind of every now and then I would get somebody that seemed like they had a gap in their experience and so and usually that gap was some way shape or form attributed to criminal justice system. So, moving on, you know I moved into HR. I still kept volunteering.

Speaker 3: 4:09

I started volunteering with this organization called New York Cares and most of the projects I did were again with people that had some way shape or form involvement with the criminal justice system. So they would have gaps in their resume. They would ask me how they could explain those gaps in their resume, gaps in their resume. They would ask me how they could explain those gaps in their resume. We would try to translate what they did while they were locked up to how it could look on their resume. So, doing all this maneuvering in their resume and it just made me just really aware and acute.

Speaker 3: 4:44

So I definitely knew people who had been arrested. I knew people that had been incarcerated. But just sitting with people that I didn't know, week after week after week, and they're coming in, I was just like this is crazy. So I was starting to get more passionate about that than my job. And at some point someone from I was in the National Black MBA Association in New York. Somebody told me hey, you ever heard of this PhD project? I think you'd really like this, nicole. So I attended the PhD project conference in 2009. And, full disclosure, I am I don't know if any of you were there at the same time I wasn't there, I was there.

Speaker 3: 5:28

So we didn't meet each other until later. But and full disclosure, I'm really frustrated right now maybe we'll talk about this later with, uh, all the heat that the PhD project is taking. There's an amazing organization like I would have never known what a PhD was had it not been for the PhD project. Right, friends? I mean, that's the whole purpose of it is to just get people like me, like you, that were working, that may not have had any previous research experience, to just know what academia is. I never thought about it before and when I left from there I was like, okay, I'm a pivot, I'm going to apply for a PhD and I'm going to do this thing.

Speaker 3: 6:11

And what I did was, while I was applying and like retaking and taking and retaking again the GMAT, I decided to do a one year AmeriCorps project in prison reentry. So that year I was in and out of different facilities, I was at probation and parole, so like I was really hands on. I was working for a nonprofit that was doing mentoring, trying to get mentors, trying to recruit people, trying to explain what the program is for people that were coming out of prison. It was just really all in me Like I just had so much energy and passion for this topic, so when I started my program in 2011, I had to start off with writing about it, and so that was my journey. So now here I am a professor and that is one of my main areas of interest.

Speaker 2: 7:05

That is so. Here's the thing. So you just said how we were at the same conference. Even though don't remember me, which is fine, I don't think I remember me either. Maybe I don't know maybe I was it.

Speaker 1: 7:19

Was it the one in chicago?

Speaker 2: 7:24

and neither of you remember me. So they're, they're there there.

Speaker 3: 7:28

You had so many people there. I mean, they did such an amazing job. Let's just say you were having such invigorating, energizing conversations that we just maybe crossed paths. How about that?

Speaker 2: 7:45

Maybe. But what's interesting, though, even though we may not remember each other, in 2009, the degrees of separation are so small in our field because there are so many, so little few of us there are represented in this space. And you know, I've known you, I've collaborated with you, I've commiserated with you, and I never knew this part about your passion and your pathway, knew this part about your passion and your pathway. So that's what I think is so cool about this space with top five yeah, that we get to really know about the human being, the part that their purpose, their journey, what got them to this point.

Speaker 1: 8:21

so I've yeah even even. It's just, it's people who we we know who we see every year conferences interact with, and then they come on the show and we're like, oh my God, I had no idea right, we learned so much about them. We didn't know. And thank you for talking about the PhD project again. Shout out to PhD project.

Speaker 3: 8:41

Thanks, yeah, phd project Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 8:44

Well, in that vein, in learning some more about you, can you share an accomplishment or project or an event related to DEI that you helped to plan or work on, or that you're currently working on, that you're really proud of and you believe it's important to share?

Speaker 3: 9:15

in this space, right. So that first paper that I worked on I was able to start that in 2011 and get that published in 2015. And that was really the first time. So I presented that at our conference, Academy of Management, AOM, in 2012. And the reception was really positive.

Speaker 2: 9:31

Can you remind us of the title, because we want to be able to share a link to it too.

Speaker 3: 9:36

Yeah, so it was hiring ex-offenders, so we don't use that term anymore, but at the time that was very commonly used, like even when I was working with the nonprofit that seemed to be the preferred language, and it was hiring ex-offenders a theoretical model, and it was with Gary Powell. So he was my advisor at the time at the University of Connecticut and I have to, you know, thank him for letting me just kind of flow with it right.

Speaker 3: 10:05

Because this was not his area at all, but he kind of just let me just go for it and it was great, right, like that was a really positive experience for me because it allowed me to just open the conversation, right. So DEI has so much in it, right, and I know that right now there's like this huge attack happening on DEI and I am really confused about it, because DEI involves everyone, right, and I just wish people would kind of just be very specific and call it out, because what I'm saying is just a lot of attacks on anything people perceive to be race based, you know, and that's really where the main thing race-based.

Speaker 2: 10:52

Race-based Gender. Like when they said they took I didn't mean to cut you off, but I just remember being on the Department of Defense took Jackie Robinson's name down. I'm like so how is this a DEI thing? Is it just because he's Black? Or like let's be real about it. Like this wasn't a a dei effort, like you can't just be just because somebody is black or gay or woman, like oh, that's dei, erase, cancel what they're not like.

Speaker 3: 11:19

That's what they're not like, right, they? They were just going through the word. I mean even the keyword that they're using. You know it's like women, or what does that even mean? You're going to take that stuff off because half of us are women. I mean, like it's crazy. So why would somebody not want to be included when they go to work? Why does somebody you know, I mean, that's what inclusion is right Like why does somebody want to feel like they don't belong in their workplace? I'm just very confused by the whole thing.

Speaker 2: 11:53

Furthermore, why are people okay with being, with excluding someone else? Yeah, because it makes them feel better Like I feel like people need to do some introspective sitting with themselves. Just sit with yourself and think about it. That may be too hard, nurse Ty.

Speaker 1: 12:13

Anyway, I don't want to reflect.

Speaker 2: 12:16

I want to feel better.

Speaker 1: 12:18

Yeah, and you know we don't do a good job of exposing people to other people from different cultures and backgrounds and things like that. I mean I know people who feel like, oh, there's no reason for me to travel outside of the country. I mean you have people who feel like, oh, there's no reason for me to travel outside of the country, I mean you have people who have this.

Speaker 2: 12:34

you know my open view, but anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt. They own little towns like live, like that.

Speaker 3: 12:38

Exactly, it's very true too, and I find that fascinating because I can't wait to travel, right, I love seeing other cultures, I love tasting other food like, in my opinion, american food is like the worst food, it's so and then, just like, I don't want any more chicken fingers but you know when it's good, when it's good, dr, when there's a fusion, when there's diversity.

Speaker 2: 13:11

oh, I want to ask you though, uh, going back to your study that you were really proud of, because I feel like there's a learning opportunity for myself and maybe others that are listening. So, when you said we don't use the term ex-offender anymore, we've evolved from that, and that's something that we've noticed, that some people have been frustrated about that. Language evolves, culture evolves. Terms that were okay and endearing at one point in life aren't today, and so can you tell us what the proper terminology is and maybe educate us on why we're not using ex offender what we should be using?

Speaker 3: 13:50

Yes, so what we really should be using is just perfect.

Speaker 1: 13:55

Makes sense to me.

Speaker 3: 13:58

So one of the other things I'm most proud of is the last thing I worked on was one of the conferences where I was actually invited. So it was like full circle for me, because you're in the beginning, you know, you're pushing, pushing, and then in the end I was actually invited and asked to work on something related to this topic, which is really cool. And so at this conference, it was a mix of people who and who were practitioners, researchers, like policy makers, like people from the census and things like that, and in the midst of that were also people who don't have a background, a criminal background, like me, and people who do so. At my table there was somebody with a criminal background and someone had asked him hey, how, how should we refer? And he was like you can just call me, and he gave his name. He's like you can just call me john, you know, and it was like, yeah, mind-blowing.

Speaker 3: 14:50

So people, persons, and because, again, this is something that you did, it's not who, you are right, and, and so now what we'll see is people that may have had some kind of justice involvement. So you'll see that criminal record, criminal history, but just added on to person or people or individual Right Men, women, like whatever it is. So I know it's lengthy, I know it's cumbersome, but I encourage people. You're right. Terms change all the time, like check the census. I mean black people used to be we went through so many changes color people we're ultimately conquering negro people. We were mulatto people, we were all these things and and now here we are Black people or whatever people want to be called. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 15:47

No, Go ahead, I don't want to talk over, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 15:51

No, no, I'm sorry. Well, no, go ahead, go ahead. I just wanted to jump in with the next question.

Speaker 2: 15:56

This is a conversation that I have with my future coworkers all the time. This is a conversation that I have with my future co-workers all the time. We have a responsibility to improve our industry and improve the language, right? So can you explain what you do Because she may not be familiar about with future co-workers and colleagues in undergraduate nursing programs and and as new grads at the bedside? I just recently just recently left a bedside position, so I still, yeah, and so this is a conversation I have with them. One of the terminologies we use to talk about babies. Don't say that anymore, right? We don't want to insult our patients. We don't want them to feel uncomfortable talking with their health care providers because they're using terminology that deems them less than human.

Speaker 1: 16:59

Keep private. What's an example?

Speaker 2: 17:03

Well, a specific example is those little spots on the backs of babies, usually babies with more melanin. So the old, outdated racist terminology is.

Speaker 2: 17:16

Mongolian spots right, what's Mongolian? Mongolian spots right, what's Mongolian? And so the terminology now is you can just call them blue spots, black spots you chart physically what you see. You can call them late gray neva, but whatever it is, you don't use that outdated terminology and it's just a responsibility that we have again to move our industry forward and not be stuck in the dregs of the past. Oh my gosh, if, can you imagine, if we, if we were still back in the times of Typhoid Mary? And it's also an opportunity, you know we want to encourage people to be brave and courageous and respectful enough to raise their hand and ask so can you explain to me why? I mean because I had a legit question. I didn't?

Speaker 3: 18:12

That was a great question, right? I love that question. Yeah, I encourage my students to ask. I tell them I'm pretty I love that question.

Speaker 2: 18:27

Yeah, I encourage my students to ask. I tell them I'm pretty, I'm pretty open, so you're not going to offend me, I'm like we heard it before. So just so, I totally love that. And what you taught me, Nicole, is that there are identities that society can imprint on us that we never agreed to us, that we never agreed to. I mean, it just became so clear when you said person. I definitely wasn't doing that to be like condescending, like duh. All y'all should know. That was more about myself, Like I'm not a formerly incarcerated person. If I choose, if that was my history and I choose to adopt that as part of my identity, as like my own kind of healing and how you know, so people can know who I'm speaking to, if there's a purpose attached to it. But no, thank you, society and other people. I'll decide how I identify and how I define myself. Thank you very much. So that's what that's. That's all that went in my head. You said that.

Speaker 3: 19:14

I love that, I love that summary right there, and I think that holds true for any of the identities right, because we don't want to just be limited to what other people think of us. So, if I choose, because there are certain moments where we may want to self-identify as whatever the thing is and there are certain moments where maybe no right, like that's just not central to this particular context and that's you know, I'm okay with that and that's a good, and that's the thing it's about.

Speaker 1: 19:45

Who makes a decision. The individual should be able to choose when they decide to self-identify in whatever way they choose to they have that freedom. That right I know we have. We still have about three more questions left, but I do but I'm curious, but I'm curious, uh, professor, I just want to.

Speaker 3: 20:03

I think you have to have the control of being able to disclose because that is one thing that many individuals do not necessarily have, that are members of this population. Because, as you may know, when you fill out your job application, there sometimes can be that question to ask do you have a criminal record? Like however it is phrased, and what will happen is people that answer dishonestly, if they run the background check, or if they find out later, the employer will fire you, and so there's a risk there. Some people will be willing to take that because maybe they just really need the money and they know that they're going to get fired in a couple of weeks, but they need that check right now. Some states, jurisdictions, have removed that question about like even asking if somebody has a criminal background, and that has seen some mixed results too, right, so you would think, ok, okay, that may open the floodgates, but you know, what's been happening in some cases is people then are making judgments about if this person may be likely to have a criminal background because of another identity, right? So if I know that many black men tend to have a criminal background and I've got some black men on the resume and for this job and I don't ask that question anymore I may assume that maybe I'll use your name, jamal may fall into that category, right, and so we're seeing that in some research too. So that's been disappointing, but there's also like some offsets to that.

Speaker 3: 21:57

So I know I had worked on a paper with another former MDSA PhD project person, dr Katrina Johnson, and we interviewed people that had gone on to college and gotten their master's Even a couple were working on PhDs and they felt really confident and had no problem just saying, yeah, this is what I did, this is not who I am, and if that's a problem, that's a problem for you, not for me, and I'm willing to just move on to an opportunity where you're going to take me in the whole person. So it just runs the gamut Right, just like other identities that might be more invisible. You know, where people some spaces, they're kind of trying to conceal it, and then other places where people some spaces, they're kind of trying to conceal it, and then other places where people are very upfront and saying like this is who, this is what I did, take it or leave it, kind of thing. So it's very interesting.

Speaker 1: 22:48

That is interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

Speaker 2: 22:50

Yeah, that was a great question. I remember because before I was an academic I was an HR manager and you know people would ask me like, okay, no one asks you when you they see you check that box, they don't ask why or what the circumstances was or you know, not that it's any of their business, but they automatically it takes you out of the running. So what should I do? And dang, this is a real issue, so I know. One thing that I've been seeing that I appreciate is when and and you can let me know if this even matters there's. I noticed that some employers are open to what I've seen as fair chance love the fair chance hiring yeah so are they?

Speaker 2: 23:34

are they legit? Is it legit or?

Speaker 3: 23:36

is it just am I just saying it? And so that's one thing that was really cool about this conference. So I will big up even companies that you would not think. Like JP Morgan, they have a fair chance hiring initiative and have and continue to hire individuals that have a criminal background, and people are shocked because they're always like but their financial services, and you know, they have all these regulations and I'm like well, jpmorgan JPMorgan is huge.

Speaker 3: 24:05

If they can figure out how to do this, you can certainly figure out how to do this. What they do, right, like they lean fully into it. Like I just placed an order for Inside Out cookie they were delicious, by the way and so they fully support and promote like it was started by someone who was formerly incarcerated and then that's who they want to hire, right. And so they don't like necessarily exclusively hire, but like they definitely will hire. So there are companies Dave's Killer Bread, same thing, right. So there are a lot of Greyston Bakery, another one, like. So there are many, many companies that are doing that and leaning into fair chance hiring, which I think is great. I think even the Body Shop is doing it. So the way that companies really have to approach it is. If I'm asking these questions how relevant is it to the job Right? Like I can, I can consider an offense if it's relevant to the position, right, and if it's not like, why am I considering this?

Speaker 2: 25:12

Well, we, we have something that we, we like to do because we're all about, you know, increasing learning and helping others. We call it word of the day and so I feel like, for two years, a fair chance, hiring, and then we can even share, like you know, the list of the companies and names so that people can know or share with their loved ones these opportunities that exist. And then also the term of when I said, well, what do you call someone who was formerly incarcerated Person?

Speaker 1: 25:41

I was thinking the same thing. That's the word of the day Person. When they see the podcast, they'll still be like person. What? Why is that?

Speaker 2: 25:51

They would never take that on and they really should take that question off of everywhere. I'm like the people on TikTok Take it off. Because really, really, if the president can be, have a record, I mean, what difference does it make?

Speaker 3: 26:13

We know that he, they are operating in a different field of movement, the president, when it's the highest level of security clearance, for all things.

Speaker 2: 26:26

Now he on something do as I say, not as I do, type of stuff. It's a mouth.

Speaker 3: 26:31

It's a mouth.

Speaker 2: 26:32

Moving forward. Sorry, I'm in my feels because my heart goes out to those who are unexpectedly displaced and have lost jobs and are just kind of like federal workers. It's not like they're making the highest salary, they're already doing it because they feel like they're doing a good for public service. So I just, my heartstrings just come up for that, so I'm and I'm feeling away and that's what came out, but I will move forward. Uh, have you ever become jaded, as clearly I was for a moment, or have had negative thoughts and doubts about the work you do because of your knowledge of the stats, of the research and any of the discriminatory, unnecessary incidents that you are more aware of than others?

Speaker 3: 27:29

yes, most definitely. I would say this is very heavy work because you know that there's real people and so our field right, we get evaluated a lot by how many journals we publish in or what journals they are, and I totally get that, but that's never really been my motivating factor, because I want people to actually be able to use this and move forward with their life, I want organizations to change their policies, and so that is kind of this frustration, because you keep feeling like you're having the same conversation over and over and over again for 10 plus years, 15 years, and you don't really see substantial change. You also continue to see the numbers of people that can get locked up and get arrested. I mean it is sad, right. So at any point in time since I've been doing this, it's like 1.5 to2 million people that are going to be involved in the criminal justice system on any year, and most of those people are not going to be there for very long.

Speaker 3: 28:35

A lot of those people may already be you. They could be on probation, right, there's some kind of community service, but something is in their background that's going to prevent them from getting a job and be able to support themselves, and that's really sad that people just don't see the need. So when there is a labor shortage, then all of a sudden everybody's like now we can hire, right, so it's amazing. When it's convenient for organizations, then they lower the barriers to entry Right. And then all of a sudden, no, we have enough people raise them again, right. So it's just like when it's when it works for them, it's great and when it doesn't forget you kind of attitude. So it does take a lot of energy and I know I've had to step back a couple of times like I just I need a break um, just a lot how do you take care of yourself?

Speaker 3: 29:30

oh, self-care. Now I'm gonna quote my peloton instructors.

Speaker 2: 29:36

I love peloton and that was one of my questions, but I'm like right into the next question. Honestly, it it really leads to the next question, and how do you mitigate your stress?

Speaker 3: 29:48

so yes, so I am a peloton enthusiast. I actually just went up there, so I will quote them. Self-care is not selfish, so I do all things like I love the yoga. Now. I never used to do yoga, now I'm into it. I do meditation, I have my bangerie. Right, I don't send email after a certain time. I don't do emails on weekends. I don't even check email from certain people that's real important.

Speaker 2: 30:19

Certain people it's really like what do you mean? You're gonna take me to a place I'm not ready to go.

Speaker 3: 30:25

I met all library candidates and said Black people, I want people to come to work and tell you what they're not going to do. That is so mean, Like I'd be, like I'm not doing that, I'm not going to that meeting, I'm not doing that. So I have definitely set up some clear boundaries for myself. To you maintain my space well that is.

Speaker 2: 30:45

That is important, I know, I know. I have just one question. Well, industrial, prison industry, like all of the companies that are like benefiting, do they hire?

Speaker 3: 30:57

that's a great question. That is a really great question, and you have a mixed bag here, right? And well, you see, I think it could be a great way, I think it would be immediate, right? Yeah, that that's how I think about it. I'm like, hey, if you're gonna, because people do want, I mean, think about it.

Speaker 3: 31:20

If you're in, if you're incarcerated there all day and I've heard this from many people they're like they just want to engage in something to help break up the day. I mean, because what are we doing? Right? And so if any kind of training offered, any kind of educational opportunity offered, usually most people want to take advantage of it, right. And so when an organization comes in and says, hey, we're providing a certification in this or we're providing training in this, people are like, yeah, ok, let's go, because this will help me break up the day, maybe I can use this later for something. And they're pretty energetic and committed and will do the thing. So then, when they come home, yeah, it would be great if that same organization would turn around and was like hey, you did literally the same job over here, let's just hire you, right. But you don't always think that, and that is very frustrating. There's a lot of companies making a lot of money off the whole system of incarceration. Is that like modern day slavery? The whole system of incarceration?

Speaker 2: 32:22

Is that like?

Speaker 3: 32:23

modern day slavery. Oh yeah, so there's an awful book. It's like slavery by another name. That book. I remember reading that years ago. That really set it off for me, because yes that's really what happened after. Slavery is a convict leasing, and so I still think of it in that way.

Speaker 1: 32:43

I mean, it's literally what that is, even a constitution. It's like you know, I can't recall right now, but it's one of the amendments I mean basically it says that you know slavery, except for if you're incarcerated, if you're basically all your rights are gone, you know. But there is somebody. I was watching the interview. I can't recall his name. If I, if I, if I find it out, I'll put it in the notes.

Speaker 3: 33:10

It'll be great to have him as a guest.

Speaker 1: 33:11

He has an organization where he actually helps formerly incarcerated individuals get back into work and it starts with some of those work programs that are in the prison systems. And it starts with some of those work programs that are in the prison systems. And so you know, I don't know too much about it, but there are some that are legit where they can. When they come out with those certifications, companies will hire them. But that needs to be formalized and it needs to be like a requirement requirement.

Speaker 3: 33:37

Exactly Because I totally agree, I totally agree.

Speaker 2: 33:38

Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, having come out of like oil and gas industry here recently and even in manufacturing and I've served on the human rights committees and I've had to go through all this training about modern slavery. But when we were talking about it, we were talking about it in terms of children, in terms of when we're working, you know, in other countries and vulnerable populations and how we're careful about it. But when you were describing, I'm like, but I've never seen in any of my trainings and observation and discussions. Let's talk about when companies choose to leverage the talents of people who are incarcerated how?

Speaker 2: 34:19

if you're exploiting their talents beyond them because and then you're not hiring them? On the other side of that, that, that could be a form of you indirectly perpetuating modern day slavery reminds me of back, when I used to help people with their resumes.

Speaker 3: 34:43

People are generally not just sitting around, they're doing something while they're incarcerated and many people are gaining a lot of skills. And those skills, those certificates, those programs that they participate in, many employers do not value them at all. Right, and that's sad too. I still remember having a conversation with someone. He's like I got a stack of them and he really did like a folder full of all these certificates he got from all these different programs he participated in and he was like nobody cares about this. It's really damaging, right. And so he came home feeling really hopeful. I did while I was incarcerated, I really took advantage of this time and then you get out there, you start applying and you just get shot down. I mean, what do you expect is going to be positive, right? So people did their time, they served, that's it, we're done, we're home. Now they need to continue on with life, right. Life costs money, so you have to have a job.

Speaker 1: 35:52

That's right, that's right.

Speaker 2: 35:53

That's some of the concerns of our veterans, too, as well. Similarly, like, yeah, and this is what we want our world to see, that for those who are anti-DEI, who may just be anti-Black, but when you put this blanket statement of anti-DEI, you're saying you're anti. Your cousin, who got caught with a Black woman that one time and went to jail and now needs to go to work.

Speaker 1: 36:22

No, that's true. You know, people make a lot of People who are differently abled. Yeah, I can't imagine all the dumb stuff I did, all the silly things I did when I was younger.

Speaker 2: 36:33

I would love to find, like where our agencies or organizations, you know we can invigorate the circular economy, or those of us who are entrepreneurs and small business owners that don't have, you know, don't don't have to go through a whole bunch of red tape and bureaucracy, they can help put some people to work in a meaningful, human-centered, valuing, reinforcing kind of way they are made so.

Speaker 1: 37:02

So now we get to the fun part, you know. So you know, kind of add some levity to this conversation. First, also shout out to those formerly incarcerated who are doing something to improve their lives while they are in prison.

Speaker 2: 37:16

Can I just tell y'all one thing Everyone deserves second chances Yep, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 37:20

I just got to say I had a shout out to my cousin so we talked about how we got on our journeys of you know, our education PhDs. My cousin you know I was a I used to always claim like I'm a first gen college student and then I thought I'm going to be the first person in my family with a PhD. And then my cousin beat me to the punch Formerly incarcerated, went and like, showed up. And person in my family with a PhD. And then my cousin beat me to the punch formerly incarcerated, went and like, showed up and showed out at University of Wisconsin Madison and became my hero and he took his experience and made that part of his dissertation and his work. He studied rehabilitative psychology and he's now working in the state of Louisiana to do something like how do we make sure that we are helping people actually be rehabilitated and reformed?

Speaker 2: 38:11

And so because it was on topic, I was like I just got a shout out and it was because of his experience. Like when life got hard for me in my first world challenges and jerking I was able to live life. But look at what he was able to do and overcome.

Speaker 3: 38:26

That is amazing. That is amazing. That is definitely one of the sectors I will say. And then we can do the fun stuff that does seem to consistently hire, right. So think about social services, counselors, right, people that are helping others that may have been on this path too. So we see a lot of hiring in that space. So I got to big up any sector, nonprofit agency you know that's in that space. They, they consistently show out.

Speaker 2: 38:54

And now I'm going to be quiet so we can get to the fun stuff. Dr J, you got it.

Speaker 1: 39:00

All right, all right, all right. So, nicole, yeah, you asked us to ask you what are your top five movies and why.

Speaker 3: 39:15

Okay, so I love movies, I love shows. I believe art imitates life and life art vice versa. I also believe there's a lot of life lessons in movies. So I have a lot of movies I like. This was really hard actually to narrow it down, but I had to say to myself what movies, if they came on, no matter my mood, that they came on, no matter my mood, like time of day, I will stop what I'm doing and watch. Okay, the first three may seem in a similar vein, but they each have lessons. It's the Godfather Good Loving and A Bronze Tale. So those three together they have some overlap of actors, but those movies in particular, like I just have so many lines and life lessons Wait, you said the Godfather, I missed it. The Godfather Good Felons and A Broward's Tale.

Speaker 1: 40:16

I'm sorry, I got excited.

Speaker 2: 40:18

A mob kind of theme going on with you.

Speaker 3: 40:20

It's too trifecta. So these women I have such good memories. So in my family we have, you know, there's a lot of stereotypes, stereotypical images of Black families, right, A single mom, and that certainly does happen. We do not really have that in my family. Everybody in my family is married. We have like a half and half men, half, and you know, men and women and I spent a lot of time with my dad and my uncles and this was a way for me to also connect with them and it was just like such a fun time.

Speaker 3: 40:55

I remember so, like I can always reminisce with them. Like a Bronsted came on during Thanksgiving weekend and I was like yo stop, like full thanksgiving weekend. And I was like yo stop, like full stop for christmas. I was like, stop what we're doing. We got to watch a bronze tale. You know the music, the soundtrack, just everything, the lines, the lessons, like I recently used one of those lessons for class in my head, though, in my head, yeah I think I need you to give me a quote, a line that's like oh because, you know how, like, sometimes you have a student.

Speaker 3: 41:24

They're just kind of annoying and you can take off like those extra two points. But you have to say, is this really worth it? And then I thought back to what Sonny was trying to teach and he was like look for $20, you got this man out of your life forever. And I said for two points, this student is out of my life for the rest of the semester. It's not worth it. It is not worth it. So I'd be applying these things in other contexts. It's amazing. Okay, so those are the first, my first three.

Speaker 1: 41:53

Well, you even said it. You sounded like a character from the movie you know. For two points. You got them out of your life. It's an offer you can't refuse.

Speaker 3: 42:03

Number three and then fourth, one Holy separate Mouth of X. So this movie, no matter when it comes out, where it is in the movie.

Speaker 3: 42:15

I will just start when I'm doing it, just start watching it when I read the book. That book will always stick with me and I was young when I first read the book but it totally shifted just so many things in me, just like how I thought about life. And then when the movie comes out, I was definitely one of those kids rocking the ex hat and the whole ex tank, like everything. I was all over it. Love, love, love Malcolm X. I love the story, I love everything about it. So I know that whole movie forwards and backwards Intersection of like other shows like Godfather and Harlan and stuff like that, where it intersects with Malcolm X. So anything like in that realm is all me. And then, coming to America, it literally rounds out my entire five, the new one or the old one, the old one.

Speaker 1: 43:04

Of course Classic.

Speaker 2: 43:06

What is your favorite Coming to America line? There's so many.

Speaker 3: 43:11

But he's like that boy good.

Speaker 1: 43:12

Oh yeah, the barbershop scenes.

Speaker 3: 43:16

Oh my God, the barbershop, I mean it was just amazing. Just so many different scenes and these are big, like I was just amazing. Just so many different scenes and these are big, like I make my kids. A couple of American came on, I made my kids, but yeah, no, but there's so many great movies out there I could have picked, but anything, those are like my top five.

Speaker 1: 43:37

That's a good top five. Yeah, all those movies, I know I'm very familiar. Those are some great movies. You know, when you started with the first three I was I was wondering if you're going to add Scarface in there. You know.

Speaker 3: 43:49

Scarface is one of my classics and I used to watch that movie. As I go through withdrawal from the NFL season Every Sunday, I would put on Scarface because I just didn't know what to do with myself.

Speaker 1: 44:03

You had a whole routine.

Speaker 3: 44:05

I did. I was like it's Scarface time.

Speaker 2: 44:07

Listen, you know the Godfather. When I was doing my MBA at University of Florida, I took Dr Henry Tosi I don't know if you all are familiar with Dr Tosi and the whole class was power and influence. It was all about the Godfather.

Speaker 3: 44:24

That makes sense.

Speaker 1: 44:25

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 44:26

Power and influence. That was like succession before succession. Mm-hmm, it's an amazing movie.

Speaker 1: 44:35

Well, dr Young, that was a great way for us to close this episode. Thank you so much for joining us today. This was a great conversation, great. You so much for joining us today. This was this is a great conversation, great conversation.

Speaker 3: 44:44

Thanks for having me. This was fun, Dyer.

Speaker 1: 44:49

Yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Glad you enjoyed it To our listeners out there. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Top 5 DEI. Please like share, subscribe.

Speaker 2: 45:01

And subscribe.

Speaker 1: 45:04

You know, buy us a cup of coffee that right there. Exactly exactly all of the above and peace out from DrJ.

Speaker 2: 45:13

Dr Miller, aka the Petty Professor, and tonight Nurse. Time.