Advocating for Equity: A Conversation with Dr. Darryl B. Rice on DEI Challenges and Resilience

IMPORTANT LINKS FOR THIS EPISODE:

Information about Ohio anti-DEI bill

Information about Texas Senate Bill 17

Dr. Rice's publications

President Donald Trump's 2025 Executive Orders

Words of the Day: Cultural Screens; Sustained Excellence

Question of the Day: Who did Dr. Rice rank as his top athlete?

Unlock the transformative power of diversity, equity, and inclusion with insights from our esteemed guest, Dr. Darryl B. Rice, affectionately known as Dr. Ice. In this episode, Dr. Ice shares his inspiring journey from the high-paced world of finance to becoming a leading academic voice in DEI. Discover how the 2008 financial crisis ignited his passion for justice and ethics, leading him to the forefront of DEI scholarship. As Dr. Ice recounts his experiences, he reveals the meaning behind his unique nickname, embodying his composed approach to tackling the intricate challenges of academia.

Explore how political ideologies shape perceptions of DEI, acting as cultural screens that often skew research interpretations and organizational dynamics. We discuss groundbreaking studies on ethical leadership and abusive supervision, highlighting how a robust psychological diversity climate can redefine workplace culture. By breaking down complex concepts like controlling for variables, we aim to make these ideas accessible, empowering listeners to bridge ideological divides and champion DEI initiatives in diverse environments.

Venture into the legal and cultural battlegrounds of DEI, particularly in states like Ohio and Texas, where systemic resistance is formidable. Our conversation delves into the emotional resilience required to advocate for DEI amidst legislative challenges and mischaracterizations. With a focus on high-profile legal battles and the chilling effects of recent bills, we highlight the unwavering dedication of DEI advocates who continue to push for justice against all odds. Join us as we celebrate the stories of those who tirelessly work toward creating equitable spaces, reminding us of the critical importance of accurate representation and understanding in DEI efforts.

Chapters

• 0:00 Dr. Ice
• 12:23 Cultural Screens in Society
• 27:22 Navigating DEI Challenges in Ohio
• 35:23 Mischaracterization of DEI in Red States
• 45:16 Legal Challenges to DEI Policies
• 57:57 Top DEI Athletes for Sustained Excellence
• 1:13:45 Navigating Legal Challenges in DEI

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:26

Hey everybody, welcome to Top 5 DEI, the premier podcast for and about professionals who practice diversity, equity and inclusion in their craft. I'm your host, dr J, and I'm here with Dr Miller, aka the Petty Professor.

Speaker 3: 0:42

And I'm Tanayi Lambert first time.

Speaker 1: 0:46

I want to thank everybody for joining us today for our special guest and, of course, all of our guests are special. This individual we've known for some time in the conferences together. He's a brilliant researcher, great person. I'm going to dive into his bio Darryl B Rice PhD, or Dr Ice to his colleagues and students. I love that. It's funny how you learn new things about people, right? I had no idea. That's wonderful.

Speaker 1: 1:14

Dr Ice is the Richard E Farmer Associate Professor, associate Professor of Management at Miami University and an Associate Editor at the Journal of Managerial Psychology. Dr Ice earned his PhD in Business Administration, witha concentration in Management, at the University of Central Florida, his MBA with a concentration in leadership from Jacksonville University and his BS bachelor's in finance, multinational business operations, from Florida State University. His research adopts an employee-centered approach across four areas, that's, organizational justice, behavioral ethics, well-being and stress, and diversity, equity and inclusion. Dr Rice is internationally recognized for his research, which has been published in leading scholarly journals such as Journal of Management Studies, human Relations, journal of Business Ethics I could go on and on. His work also appears in the Oxford Handbook of Organizational Justice and his research has been presented and featured at conferences such as the Academy of Management, society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology and Southern Management Association, he primarily teaches Introduction to Management and Leadership in Diversity and Cross-Cultural Management. He has also been an invited guest to organizational justice and behavioral ethics-themed conferences.

Speaker 1: 2:34

Additionally, dr Rice is involved with the PhD project and he frequently speaks to high school students about transitioning from high school to college through Miami's Make it Miami college prep program and Alpha Phi, alpha's Go to High School Go to College National program. Prior to academia, dr Rice was an investment manager analyst for Bank of America Merrill Lynch. While working in the financial services industry, he obtained his Series 7 and Series 66 securities licenses. He was making that money y'all. So he's really committed to what he's doing to walk away from all that money. Dr Rice, thank you for joining us.

Speaker 4: 3:15

No, thank you. Thank you for having me Definitely looking forward to the opportunity to join this amazing team of hosts at Top 5 DEI. And there's actually a cool story about how I got that nickname, dr I. So when I showed up at UCF as a doctoral student, I was, you know, working as a teaching assistant and my professor put up my email address. If students need any, you know help, you know contact Daryl. Here's his email and my email address was driceatucfedu.

Speaker 4: 3:56

But one of the students asked me how did I get the school to give me Dr Ice?

Speaker 3: 4:03

as an email address.

Speaker 4: 4:04

And I was like it's just my first initial last name. But then the name just kind of stuck because in a you know PhD program you're always stressed, right, it's crazy, it's demanding. But they never saw me like sweat. They was like you just seem like nothing ever bothers you. So Mike was like you're Dr Ice and it kind of just stuck from there. I have a campus visit, carlos, you would appreciate this job market year. I have a campus visit at Miami University. One of the colleagues who was at Miami was like tell me something that happened to you as a doctoral student that you had no idea. And then I tell him like how I got the name. I was like, yeah, one of my students thought it was dr rice. I went to ucf and said give me dr rice, and it was d rice ucfedu. He started laughing and then he told everyone and kind of just stuck out miami as well because I I sincerely thought there was some type of nod to alpha phi, alpha that works too.

Speaker 4: 5:16

So you know, as a as an ice cold brother of alpha phi, alpha fraternity incorporated. When I told my line brothers they was like that's crazy. Um, so it works on um that level as well, carlos.

Speaker 1: 5:31

Oh wow, that's a great story, man Life. So we learned how you got your name, Monica. How did you get into your field, like doing the things that you're doing? I mean, tell us your journey.

Speaker 4: 5:47

Yeah, so at UCF I started out as I was trained as an organizational justice and behavioral ethics scholar. So you know that that was that literature just resonated with me because I left you know, financial services, investment banking because I just felt like it was morally wrong for our, you know, organizational leaders to have these crazy, you know lavish severance packages, because I was there when it went you know the crash of 2008,. Right, so you know, those decisions that they made was one of the reasons Merrilleryl lynch, who I worked for, had to merge with bank of america. So it's like they made all these decisions but the people at the, the low end of the totem pole were the ones that were getting fired and I just thought that was immoral, it wasn't right, it was unfair. So that kind of motivated me to like dive into the justice and behavioral ethics literature. And then, as I progressed and started looking at you know, the DEI literature, it was very siloed. So you know, the behavioral ethics wasn't, you know, starting to talk to the organizational justice scholars. But you know, no one in behavioral ethics and organizational justice was really interacting and engaging with DEI scholars in the literature.

Speaker 4: 7:23

So my first paper in my job market talk was integrating what I learned as a justice and ethics scholar into the DEI world. So I presented kind of my first integration of the literature when we talked about the unwelcoming experience of abusive supervision. So I was like I don't care if you look like me or you don't look like me. So I was like I don't care, you know, if you look like me or you don't look like me. If you are in a position of power and you are mistreating me, I'm not going to feel like I belong here, I'm not going to feel welcome.

Speaker 4: 8:00

That paper was well received on the job market, ended up turning to a nice publication and ever since then I've kind of made a academic career integrating across those three disciplines because conceptually to me it's all about treating people right, treating people fairly. So it naturally speaks to a lot of issues in the DEI space, issues in the DEI space. But yeah, so my justice and ethics training kind of led me to ask certain questions that in the DEI literature that I felt like wasn't being asked at the time. So that's kind of how I ended up, you know, doing DEI research, consulting on these issues with companies and things of that nature. That's interesting.

Speaker 1: 8:56

Yeah, thank you, I'm glad you mentioned that because I hadn't thought about that, because same thing with the corporate social responsibility metric, right Like at one time they had this umbrella and diversity was one of those facets or dimensions of it. But then I noticed that just over time just kind of dissipated that conversation, just left that domain. I mean that's not my forte, my wheelhouse CSR. But it's funny how similarly I appreciate your mind seeing that and wanting to do something about it too. That's cool.

Speaker 4: 9:29

Yeah about it too. That's cool, yeah, so one of the things that my mom is always telling me, as well as my wife and anyone who knows me. They always say I like to fight right in terms of if something is bothering me, I just can't let it go like I have to say something. I have to let you know. You know without a shadow of a doubt, like, where I stand on this issue. So if something kind of like riles me up, I'm going to say something. You know it wasn't beneficial in the corporate space, but it has resulted in more wins than losses in my academic career.

Speaker 1: 10:16

That's good, good for you, awesome.

Speaker 2: 10:18

That is also very empowering. I have a follow-up question to that For everyone who's listening in. I just want to clarify that DEI does not mean didn't earn it. It means diversity, equity and inclusion. Just in case you know, just want to start on that basis. And so when you were studying and are studying organizational justice and ethics and combining it with the research of diversity, equity and inclusion, um, did you take on? Because one one and the reason why I'm asking this I'm just wondering did you take on a perceptual lens when you were looking at how to integrate? Because studying organizational justice or perceptions of justice is what got me into the DEI literature. And then, when I think of what's happening in our world today, I think our framing around what's fair and what's just is taking a shift. So I'm just interested, when you're cause, you're telling us about your journey, how you got into the DEI space, but how are you seeing that trajectory go?

Speaker 4: 11:44

So I see the trajectory going in different directions, but it's based upon the audience, right? So you know the prototypical audience in terms of who I'm saying let's integrate. These are other academics and that you know that trajectory has went exceptionally well, like it's more of like I'm literally getting invites to go talk at organizations because I have somehow managed to live in this space that merges justice and DEI. I see it in society going two different directions. The screening mechanism is basically one's political ideology. So if you are more of a progressive in your political ideology, you are more open to hearing how justice and DEI is integrated. If you have this conservative political ideology, even when you hear it, you try to poke holes in it because it's simply at odds with your political mechanism. So one of the things that's cool about teaching my diversity in cross-cultural management course we get into what is called, what are called cultural screens, and cultural screens are these psychological mechanisms that literally shape how we receive the information that's being presented. And you know in America, based upon, like you know, your culture, that screens change. In America one of the most effective cultural screens is political ideology. It influences how we receive information, our selective perception, our confirmation bias. So I can present the same paper or the same findings and, based upon that political screen, you see value in the work or you don't see value in it. And I'll give you a quick example. So one of my papers, again playing at this intersection of DEI and ethics. We were my colleagues and I we looked at how it impacts leadership styles, right, and what we found were managers when they perceive they're in an organization with a strong psychological diversity climate, it increased their subsequent evaluations from their employees of ethical leadership and abusive supervision. So the more this manager perceived that they were in an organization with a strong psychological diversity climate, they were rated higher on ethical leadership and lower on abusive supervision. Conversely, if managers were in organizations they perceived as having a weak psychological diversity climate, they were rated lower on ethical leadership and higher on abuses supervision. So the hook for that paper is if you, if most organizations, care about increasing ethical leadership and decreasing abuse of supervision increasing ethical leadership and decreasing abusive supervision, right, you don't want to get sued for abusing people or causing an organizational scandal, right? So that's good. Like people are like yeah, we need more ethical leadership, we need less abusive supervision. Here's how you get that. And then you bring in psychological diversity climate.

Speaker 4: 15:28

If people you know progressive ideology, they're more likely to say, hey, this is demonstrated in an experiment and in a field study. You know conservatives? Oh, I still don't buy it. There has to be something else that explains it. Control for some other things. That doesn't explain it. So I think you just have to understand who you're talking to. And I think as DEI professionals we have to be okay that we're never going to get everybody to see the value in this work because it inherently challenges the status quo and when you are challenging value systems, deeply held convictions and things of that nature. So if someone just thinks DEI is about helping you know black people or women, people with visible, invisible disabilities, it doesn't matter how you know strong, the business case, the empirical evidence it is, it's still you know you are. I don't like it because this is what I think it is, although you know from an empirical research standpoint, what they think it is is completely inaccurate.

Speaker 2: 16:38

So Hmm, interesting. You know I haven't seen that particular research and I'm wondering, and I know I have to move off of this, but I would hypothesize that there's likely a curvilinear relationship somewhere in there, like to the extent of your extremism, of your beliefs, one in one direction or another. Um, because I you know there could be a point of being too progressive where nothing, you feel like nothing, is enough or could you.

Speaker 1: 17:12

That's an interesting thing. Yeah, I haven't thought about that.

Speaker 4: 17:22

Yeah, so with most of you know the research that we do in general, I tend to believe at some point you know there is this diminishing value and that's where the curvilinear relationship comes in. I also think how you, when you're studying this stuff, like how you measure it, really matters.

Speaker 2: 17:44

So the way before you go in, I have to say this. So if my 12-year-old were listening and heard you say the psychological climate psychological diversity climate. Can you explain that to my 12-year-old in a way that she might understand it? And I realize I didn't explain what I meant by curvilinear relationship, but just so we can make sure everybody can follow you.

Speaker 1: 18:12

Yeah, I was about to say you're getting real heady right now, like folks are going to have to pull out dictionaries to let them get no. No, thank you. Good, point it out, yeah, and also what it means to control for another variable Cause I was going to interject that, but you can, yeah.

Speaker 4: 18:53

Yeah, so. So, carlos, if I had to explain this to a 12-year-old, but a 14-year-old. So psychological diversity climate is the extent you believe your company, where you are working, actually have policies and practices that helps everyone be promoted. They're removing barriers that impact certain individuals. So the more you do that, there's just this natural agreement that, yes, this company is inclusive. This company understands certain individuals have barriers that others don't. So that's how I'll explain it To what extent your company is aware that we have different people in the workplace and we have to make those individuals feel welcome by removing barriers that could be in place and promoting and developing whoever is in our workplace.

Speaker 4: 19:56

No matter, you know our different identities, but if you're here, we're going to develop you. So that's how I'll explain it to your 12 year old. You can get back to me if that worked or not. I will. That work or not, I will. And to your point, jason, when we say you're controlling for other variables, you're just accounting for alternative explanations. So, hey, this may also impact this finding or why we think this psychological diversity climate is increasing ethical leadership. It could be that they have an ethical culture and that's what's driving the ethical leadership, or this person just is a nice, ethically oriented, morally strong individual, morally strong individual. So we want to account for potentially alternative explanations to really say we have something here.

Speaker 1: 20:59

Yeah, and you know what? I wish we could talk about your research, because I really like your research, especially the one about people who support Trump and abusive supervisory roles. I mean, we can go on and on, but we have limited time.

Speaker 2: 21:15

We do, and I'm sorry. We're going to have to invite you back.

Speaker 3: 21:18

Invite you back just for a research session.

Speaker 4: 21:21

We'll talk offline. In terms of how much stuff we had to go through to get those published. That was a journey.

Speaker 2: 21:33

The story behind.

Speaker 4: 21:37

Jesus.

Speaker 3: 21:39

All of that, what you're saying. It also impacts health care outcomes, right, they've gotten rid of. Now they want to say you can't say DEI, get rid of DEI. But what we've seen is because of I like this term cultural screens, right biases, things like that those impact how nurses and doctors and other providers treat patients, and it all has an impact on outcomes. So, even though they don't want to talk about, it, certainly is something to be talked about absolutely, that sounds like a paper man.

Speaker 1: 22:14

We had cultural screens in health care. You know some collaboration.

Speaker 3: 22:18

I mean, you know you don't want to call it DEI, we'll call it what? Hmm?

Speaker 1: 22:24

oh what's the next question?

Speaker 2: 22:26

I was going to say I'm up for the next question because then you know I was about to piggyback on that. But I will stay on somewhat of a track. Dr Ice, Sorry, I'm never going to, especially now that I know the story. I'm probably going to chuckle every time I say it. No-transcript.

Speaker 4: 23:10

Oh, so so many to share. But what I am actually proud of like an accomplishment happened last week. Yeah, so I was the inaugural faculty recipient of Miami's University's MLK Service Award. So, yeah, kudos, kudos, yeah, thank you, thank you. The story behind it is, last year, our Office of Transformation and Inclusive Excellence as well as the Center for Student Diversity and Inclusion at Miami. Like hey, who on campus you know, lives up to the ideals of Dr MLK Jr. So when I got the email saying hey, you're nominated, you're going to, you know, receive this recognition.

Speaker 4: 24:31

It was an extremely humbling event because I know I make a lot of noise like for better or worse. I know sometimes I may cause headaches for individuals in terms of how outspoken I am on certain issues, but to have you know, students, faculty and staff you know say like yo, we see you, we see the work that you do not just in you know, students, faculty and staff you know say like you know, we see you, we see the work that you do not just in you know, your research and teaching, but the service that you are providing to the students and helping you know them achieve their goals in the spirit of removing barriers, fighting for equity and equality. That really meant a lot for me. So that is one accomplishment that I was proud of. And then, when I got it, I took a picture of it. I text it to my oldest daughter.

Speaker 4: 25:31

I have three kids a 14-year-old daughter, a nine-year-old son and a seven-year-old daughter. So my 14-year-old daughter. I texted to her a picture of it and she texts back I'm so proud of you, daddy. And I was like you've never said you've been proud of me in my life. But she was like, no, I'm always proud of you, but I just really wanted to Her texting back saying I'm so proud of you. That made it even more special.

Speaker 2: 26:04

Yeah, why am I crying?

Speaker 3: 26:07

I know, that is beautiful.

Speaker 1: 26:12

That was the accomplishment right there. That was really what made the day right.

Speaker 4: 26:16

The text like oh yeah, yeah, you know, because you know you know dads and you know the daddy daughter relationship is super special. You know you're overprotective. These are my princesses and little boy, better not ever try. You know my, my babies, right. So you know you always have this protective, you know spirit or or whatnot, and then for her to be like I see, like I see you dad, like that, I'm so proud of you. Yeah, I mean, I, I didn't shed a tear because I'm a G probably.

Speaker 4: 26:57

Carlos, you're like my wife, like my wife she I call her a water bag. When you watch the TV and something happens, she'll just start. I'm like why are you crying? But but yeah, so that was really, really special.

Speaker 1: 27:11

I plead the fifth because my wife is right here.

Speaker 3: 27:14

Smart man smart man was really, really special. I plead the fifth because my wife is right here.

Speaker 4: 27:18

Smart man, smart man, that PhD comes in handy huh.

Speaker 2: 27:23

Listen, I'm going to tell you why I teared up.

Speaker 2: 27:26

I teared up because I mean, you and I we've had some conversations, we've worked on some committees together, we've done some stuff together and I know that what I know about you is that all the you know the noise that you may make, the smoke that you may raise and all of the service that you do is I know that you do it not just for today's challenges but for the future.

Speaker 2: 27:55

And you know how do you establish and lead a legacy for your children's children. And so when you said that, your daughter said I'm proud of you because I know that your kids I mean we're all parents on this panel they don't see all that we sacrifice, all the smoke that we get to try to, like you said, just make the world, the working world, just a better and more just and equitable place so that when they enter the workforce and when they have their own jobs, they don't have to deal with some of the crap. And so you know they don't know that. So I'm like I started crying because I could just imagine like, wow, she sees you and you probably didn't even know that she sees you like that.

Speaker 4: 28:37

Yeah, it's like the roles reversed, yeah, so you, kind of based upon the conversations you know we've had last year and kind of just seeing her come into her voice, whether it's you know her going on and on and on about the TikTok ban and shutting down my rights, freedom, I'm like, ok, right, the apple's not falling too far from the tree, so I got it, I got to give her that. But yes to your, to your point, carlos. That is one of the reasons because you all know like this this work is, is difficult, like you know, some people see the value, but then some people will, you know, you become a target because you're doing this work for, for others. So that is one of the reasons that keeps me like motivated is, like you know, like I want, you know, my children, my grandchildren, my great great grandchildren to you know, have a more equitable and inclusive society.

Speaker 3: 29:44

So, speaking to that, you said doing that, doing that work. How has that been in specifically working with DEI? So yeah, in Ohio.

Speaker 4: 29:55

It's been weird it's been mixed, so you know.

Speaker 3: 30:00

Y'all had those visitors on the bridge.

Speaker 4: 30:03

Yeah, so yeah, yeah, that asked what happened in Lincoln Heights. I was not surprised, given it's a predominantly black neighborhood and it's like FAFO. So yeah, they got it ran up out of there really quick. But for the work being in Ohio, it's mixed because we've had our anti-DEI legislation pending for more than two years.

Speaker 4: 30:34

Dei legislation pending for more than two years so when the first bill that was introduced was Ohio Senate Bill 83, and everyone just thought that was going to pass. So you know, we started. The school made the decision to change some of the names. They asked me to change my course title. It was like oh, you're diversity and cross-cultural management. They asked me to change my course title. They was like oh, you're diversity and cross-cultural management. Can you just call it cross-cultural management?

Speaker 4: 31:01

My colleague who teaches it with me, you know we push back right and I pushed back very forcefully because I read the bill. I said, first of all, the bill hasn't even passed and even if you read the bill, it says nothing in this bill should be misconstrued to impact class and course instruction. So I'm not changing my title and I also feel like this request is politically motivated and did not have anything to do with the content or the curriculum that we teach. I knew that was going to make its way to our general counsel office. That's why I put I feel like this is politically motivated. Less than 30 minutes later we get a response that we can keep the name. Diversity, cross-cultural management.

Speaker 1: 31:49

Good for you, that's awesome.

Speaker 4: 31:51

Yeah, but yeah, you just have to know what's in the bill and what it impacts and what it doesn't impact, because a lot of people just take what other people say word is gospel and don't read it for themselves, so it's just hearsay. So we've been allowed to do what we've always done. So my work, my research is being funded. I go to the conferences. I'm not being shut down anyway in my role as a professor. Now our Office of Institutional Diversity and Inclusion was changed to the Office of Transformational and Inclusive Excellence Office of Transformational and Inclusive Excellence, and directors of student diversity, equity and inclusion have been, you know, director of said program. So we have, you know, dealt with some of the name changes in Ohio. The people, at least in staff, in my opinion, when you're staff you don't have the same protections as faculty. So you know they're just being, you know, dictated like. This is what it's going to be. I'm going to change your title, because I can't change your title as opposed to you can't change. You know you can ask me to change this course. But you know, academic freedom says I like, like. You gave me this, like we literally made the recommendation to switch from cross-cultural management to diversity and cross-cultural management back in 2020, when everyone was on the dei hype train, um. So it's been mixed Um and now it seems like this new push to get it passed um is is going to to be um successful. But I submitted, you know, my my written testimony. We have opposition hearings um tomorrow for the bill. I can't make it. So I just submitted my written testimony Um, but the work continues.

Speaker 4: 33:55

I think, no matter what, this work continues because I truly believe this work is rooted in systemic anti-black racism and what we know in this particular country, that systemic anti-black racism. It evolves, it morphs, it changes. It's like this virus right, if you don't kill it, it just changes and finds a new host and DEI, you know evidence-based approach, you know, to DEI initiatives. That is like the cure, like that is what's going to kill this virus. So our work changes to to meet this new manifestation of it. So I don't think, you know, regardless of what laws you pass, the work will um get done. So, yeah, ohio's, it's been mixed. It hasn't been, as you know, kind of this forceful ban that you see in my home state of Florida where, like you know, my colleagues are like yo, it's crazy. Down here you probably have some similar experiences in Texas. So we're not, we're not there, but you know is we're also not. You know, you know California or Oregon, washington or New York, where it's like we're living in, like completely different realities.

Speaker 1: 35:19

Countries almost In one country, yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:24

Really, speaking of Texas, my home state, what do you find most troubling about the DEI narrative in Texas and other red states? Because we know that scholarship and research it permeates across all of these borders and I know you hear and see what going on, what's going on and have other colleagues, so we are curious to know about your perspective.

Speaker 4: 35:58

The most troubling aspect of the narrative is just how blatantly mischaracterized it is. It's like they know when I say they, I would consider they as DEI opponents. They know they can't win on scholarship and research. The business case is too solid. You have all these scholars at leading institutions from across the planet, not just in America, from across the planet. That shows the value of DEI, right. So I was like all right, we can't win, you know, that battle. So we're just going to completely mischaracterize, intentionally lie about it. So it's the gross mischaracterization, the lies just being you know peddled and how it's just thrown out there just to kind of, you know, rile up folks. You know who are against diversity, equity and inclusion of goes back to what happened in maryland when the, you know the, the boating accident, the ferry hits the, the bridge, the bridge collapsed. And then you know they, they blame that on dei. Although the horrible um plane, you know accident that happened um over in the dc area, and then they blamed that on DEI.

Speaker 2: 37:33

So even like most recently, Trump's assassination attempt was also blamed on DEI.

Speaker 4: 37:42

Yeah, speaking of Trump, he also blamed the Chiefs attention being on DEI as the reason they got blew out in the Super Bowl. So it's just like the mischaracterization in terms of like this is what DEI is all about. Like the opponents, you know falsely leveling the accusation that these programs, and again a lot of it, is rooted in anti-black racism. A lot of people don't want to admit it, but you know the dei hires. When you think of dei hires, they they generally are aimed at. You know black people, not the people of color, but black people, like when vice president uh, harris became the nominee, it was a lot of stuff about her. You know being a DI, you know candidate, despite her being the actual vice president.

Speaker 4: 38:39

You know a senator from you know the state of California, an attorney general for so all of her credentials and qualifications don't matter, you know, because her skin complexion, so that's that's the most troubling aspect about this is like you just, you just lie, because I mean, if you're a person of color, particularly if, if you are a black person, you know you can't be mediocre, right? If we're mediocre, there's no way we're getting a job. We're not getting promoted, we're not. There's no way we're getting a job, we're not getting promoted, we're not being admitted into colleges, selective programs, if we are mediocre. Oftentimes at least, I was told. Growing up in the South right Florida, and my mom made it clear that you have to be twice as good just to get half of what they got right. Twice as good just to get half of what they got right. So so there, there's no room for, you know, people with marginalized identities to be mediocre.

Speaker 1: 39:43

Um so, that right there, that right there exactly so that's.

Speaker 4: 39:47

That's kind of my. It was like we're somehow unqualified and taking spots from these extremely deserving white people, and that has always been a pet peeve of mine, because when I say, do you know this person's qualifications, it's like no, but I know this person is not qualified or should have went to someone else who doesn't look like you.

Speaker 3: 40:14

Yeah, qualify, or should have went to someone else who doesn't look like you.

Speaker 2: 40:21

Yeah, yeah, and you know the three of us are based in Texas. I would just add you know something that you said about being in Ohio and how you were able to refute the Senate bill by reading it. I would say that's probably one of the differences that we're seeing. Well, that I've observed is that, for those of us that do read and do present like these are what your word says, it doesn't matter. Well, you didn't. There is the difference between what's written and what's the spirit of the law, and they will win in public opinion and you know, for forced compliance, even if it's not written. And so that's why I feel like there's a, there's a challenge, because you know, I read the fine print, I read, read everything, and then when I read it, I say, well, wait, it didn't say this You're like. So you know, I don't have to say that, because this is what I meant.

Speaker 1: 41:21

Yeah, we had a lot of that. You know, if you're watching, you know most of y'all are watching the news. But for the audience to be watching news what's going on in Texas, there's a lot of overcompliance, right Even before the bill passed. So our bill is SB 17,. House Senate bill, sorry, senate bill, SB 17. And it prohibits DEI offices, any office for DEI. But however-.

Speaker 2: 41:47

In public universities.

Speaker 1: 41:49

In public universities, thank you, thank you for telling me. Thanks for that clarification. Yeah, it's not the private sector, right? It's not other programs, even though now they're trying to extend that to. If you receive any type of federal funding that you can't do any DEI type of work, diversity, equity, inclusion work. Similar situation, uh, with over compliance because the bill uh, its scope uh, does not cover teaching, does not cover research either, but it still had this, or?

Speaker 1: 42:25

student recruitment activities or student recruitment activities because I read it yeah, it's student recruitment act, yeah, so, yeah, anything dealing with education. So I get student recruitment Underneath that umbrella of teaching. But it still had that chilling effect because I think, like you said, dr Ice I got to use it, the term, dr Ice A lot of folks aren't reading. So, man, our listeners out there read everything, okay, because a lot of this is. I mean, of course, you know, we know that they want to do away with the programs, but some of this they know might be unconstitutional, they know they might lose.

Speaker 1: 43:03

And so is this term called I just learned the other day called muzzle velocity. So, steve, it's a strategy that Steve Bannon came up with. He coined the term where it's basically hit everybody with a whole bunch of stuff and leave them confused so that by the time they figure it out, you hit them with something else. So now they have to leave this and go to the next, and on to the next, and on to the next, and so it leaves everyone paralyzed. And I know for this entire year everyone was paralyzed.

Speaker 1: 43:33

Fortunately, we did some listening sessions to let people understand that and people had this awakening, this aha moment. They didn't realize like, oh, I can teach this class or I can do some research. They had no idea, and so it's very important for everybody to go out there and read, but as of yet even still, we haven't been asked to change the names of our classes. I'm not going to name it when I work at my university, but there are some that are. They are asking instructors to scrub the names, the titles of their courses and their curriculum. It's very scary, but what I know. Ty, you had a question. We talked about it earlier.

Speaker 3: 44:20

You wanted to ask I did have a question in terms of Dr Issa how do you combat these opponents of DEI? Because, like you said, the work has to continue and it's rooted in we know what it's rooted in right. And so, as a healthcare professional, as a nurse, I see that these issues severely impact black women and black people, and so, as a researcher myself, how do I go about continuing the work?

Speaker 4: 45:02

So excellent question. I think I don't give DEI opponents a lot of credit, but what I do give them credit for and where I I feel like sometimes us, as dei proponents, we don't have that same willingness to basically say I'll see you in court, right? So, because you know, 2020 was this country's racial reckoning, right, everyone got on board. The folks who did not like it was like I don't care if I have this unfavorable opinion at the moment, I'm going to take this case to court. And like I don't care what you think, I'm going to take this case to court. That's how they got affirmative action, you know, struck down, right, this is, you know it's a violation of the 14th Amendment, right Is, you know, giving certain advantages to black and brown students at the this and you know, making it more difficult for, you know, white and Asian students. Right, and they were willing to kind of get in the legal arena.

Speaker 4: 46:19

To your question, ty, I don't think we have that same willingness to the muzzle velocity that Carlos and Jason was talking about. Is we're going to hit you with this? We're going to hit you with this, but if you don't have anyone, you know on campus in your organization saying why are you asking me to do this when this is unconstitutional? Right and literally, like I made a post when SB1 came up, miami is Miami knows that if this bill passed, this guy will be a plaintiff in the federal lawsuit. He's already told us the reasons he thinks this bill is unconstitutional it's a violation of institutional autonomy, faculty academic freedom First and Fourteenth Amendment violations. But if you Ty, if you don't have someone who's like, all right, that's your approach. I think that approach is illegal and I'm willing to do whatever I have to do to defend my rights. Right, this is viewpoint restriction. You can't get over that. And so I think we do have to be willing to say all right, you've passed this bill, but this bill is unconstitutional. So what? We are starting to see whether we're talking about Trump's present executive order banning DEI in Florida, their DEI bill was Florida Senate Bill 266. Alabama has one as well. But the bills in Florida and Alabama are facing legal challenge, right, the President Trump's executive order is also facing a legal challenge, and as professors we can kind of appreciate this right.

Speaker 4: 48:29

So we all know these are like copycat bills from the original, like the original, the genesis of all this was florida's stop woke act. Right, would be my home state, right? We always got some. There's always a competition between florida and texas who can kind of be the craziest, right? Um, but people, people forget that the Stop Woke Act was passed in April of 2022, but struck down as unconstitutional in November of 2022 due to academic freedom violations and first and 14th Amendment violations.

Speaker 4: 49:11

So as soon as it got challenged, a federal judge put an injunction on it from taking effect, and one of the reasons these state bills are targeting public universities and not private companies in the state anymore because that section of banning mandatory trainings from private employers that was also struck down by the same judge in Florida in terms of this being unconstitutional. It was like a state can't dictate to a private employer what they can ask or require their employees to be trained on. Whether we're talking about DEI, security, fraud, training, whatnot, it is not the state's place to say you need to have this training or you can't have that training. But since it's generally a copy and paste job, the federal challenges across the states read very similar in terms of there's a problem with academic freedom, right, but the main argument is you can't get away from the viewpoint restriction. Right, it is the state saying I don't like this topic of DEI and I'm trying to censor it. So it's the viewpoint restriction. So it's the viewpoint restriction which makes it this First Amendment violation. And then, when you start disbanding these programs and the funding that comes along with it, it disproportionately impacts people with protected classes and that makes it a 14th Amendment violation because it's got to be equal protection under the law, so it's not racially neutral. It's like if you read the alabama legal complaint, alabama goes in like the, the aclu.

Speaker 4: 51:03

I read that and I got excited. I was like they know what they're talking about, right, but they always like this is disproportionately impacting black faculty staff and and students and I think that's one of the reasons Ohio bill had stalled for two years. Because I talked to you know the people who are. I was like if we fire everyone in the DEI office that's mainly black people Like you will literally open yourself up for a lawsuit because this employment action you're taking at the state level is incongruent with federal law, like it can't disproportionately impact you know people with protected classes. So I think that's why people have been re you know, reassigned because someone is saying all right, if we implement this, will we sue for gender or racial discrimination?

Speaker 4: 52:01

Because these laws, given who's actually doing the work and care about this, is disproportionately people with marginalized identities. But you have to have people willing to fight that identities. But you have to have people willing to fight that. And sometimes, if I'm a junior faculty or a staff, I may not want to, you know, rock the boat. So I do think that's why it's important for you know, tenured faculty or people who just don't like I don't care about this job, like this is wrong to be willing to say okay, cool, you know, you got this short term, when you and I both know this bill is unconstitutional. It's like when someone copies a bad paper like this, the original person got enough. So what do you think you're going to get on this assignment? So, but we do, ty, we have to be willing to. You know, stand 10 toes down and say, all right, they're coming for these programs. What exactly are we doing? That's illegal, like, walk me through. How are we violating the law?

Speaker 4: 53:06

Because the scholarship is not restricted by race. Anyone can apply as a first gen, you know scholarship program. It's just not for Black people. No, black and Brown students are disproportionately first-gen college students because our ancestors were not always allowed to go to universities and whatnot. So I think when a university knows that that this person or this group of people is speaking out on these issues, they're more likely to. You know, we're going to have pushback and let me really think this through. So I just think we have to really be able be willing to. If we have to go to court, we will go to court.

Speaker 2: 53:53

Which does require a considerable amount of funding.

Speaker 1: 54:00

Funding and organizing.

Speaker 4: 54:03

Or you're going to say organizing, and you're going to say or yeah, I didn't want to cut anyone off Not necessarily right, anyone off not necessarily right. So the aclu and the naacp, once you start reading the, the legal.

Speaker 2: 54:19

So you guys know like I'll be reading right yes yes, I'm following these cases right.

Speaker 4: 54:28

So oftentimes they will work um pro bono right, because this or it's impacting a lot of their members. Because if faculty and staff or students are members of the NAACP, they can bring the lawsuit on behalf of the members because they have, like what is called association standing. So I was like your law is negatively impacting my members. This is what your law is causing. The adverse harm is causing my members these acts. So the individual is not necessarily named. It is the NAACP or the ACLU. The ACLU does a lot of filing the cases and arguing the cases.

Speaker 4: 55:22

I've had several conversations with folks in the NAACP and ACLU in different states because there is an organizing, there is like a resistance organizing and, um, you just have to have a willing party to say this is the email that I got look, I was able to go to this conference last year but I'm no longer able to go because the university won't use department funds to allow me to go to this conference to present my research, right, um, but again, you have to allow me to go to this conference to present my research, right, but again you have to have standing to bring that suit. So no one you know. We'll say Texas is willing to say I'm like this is impacting me. It doesn't happen. Fortunately, in Florida and Alabama and these other states we see like faculty and students working, you know, strategically with the ACLU and NAACP to challenge the constitutionality of these bills. So like the path is there, you know we just there's no need to reinvent the wheel.

Speaker 1: 56:33

Thank you for sharing. That was some good stuff, because you know that's what people ask me all the time. People are wondering like what can I do? Because it's time to stop just being shocked. It's almost like it's entertaining now to see what's the next development, and I think that's the way they're kind of starting to condition us to get into the cycle of again paralysis, again. It's time to actually do things, do stuff, right. So I'm glad you mentioned NAACP, aclu, and so I guess the people can kind of call, join, find out what's going on that way, right? Yeah, I'm going to wrap us up with the last question, though, and it's the most fun part of the hour drumroll, drumroll for the top five faves question. So, dr Ice, you wanted us to ask you. I love this question. You didn't have to share the answers. You shared the answers with me. You didn't have to share the answers. You shared the answers with me already too.

Speaker 2: 57:36

We haven't seen the answers.

Speaker 1: 57:38

I haven't seen the answers. Y'all need to check your answers, no.

Speaker 2: 57:43

I want to be surprised. Debate allowed. No, I'm kidding.

Speaker 1: 57:50

Who are your top five athletes. I'm going to ask you to do this, if you don't mind. Key, put them in ranking order, like the least To the number one top Cause when you listed it I don't know if they were in just random order or not, cause I saw a name on there I was kinda curious about, like this should be number one, so I'm just name on there.

Speaker 3: 58:13

I was kind of curious about like this should be number one.

Speaker 4: 58:15

So I'm just wondering Wait. So I want to start with the top, because that's an interesting story.

Speaker 1: 58:23

Okay, you can guess, that's all good.

Speaker 4: 58:26

Yeah, but it's splitting hairs. But number one Jerry Rice, right so greatest. But number one Jerry Rice, right so greatest of all time receiver. But growing up I'm from Jacksonville so we didn't have an NFL team until 1995 when we had the Jaguars. But prior to that I was a huge San Francisco 49ers fan Still a chip for the 49ers to this day. I used to always tell people that Jerry Rice is my uncle. I always tell people that Jerry Rice is my uncle. I was, like yo, my uncle's out here doing it right so yeah, wow, I always tell people that so Jerry top.

Speaker 4: 59:14

so yeah, so, wow, yeah, so that I always tell people that so Jerry top number one all time. Jerry Rice. Uncle Jerry yeah, unc gotta show Unc love, right? Hey, that's a good one, you know what I get it now.

Speaker 1: 59:30

I can accept that I like the story behind it story with it. Okay, okay, got it.

Speaker 4: 59:36

Number two MJ Love MJ, In my mind number one NBA player of all time, because I got to like watch like MJ, like be MJ and just see like this dude does not lose, how like you got to hope he's just off, Right.

Speaker 2: 1:00:06

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:00:07

So that's, that's number two. Number three Kobe Bryant, love Kobe. Yeah, you can't have hentai without kobe that's almost like a head and hand, right, yeah, so and for me, like it was this this person is the second coming of mj like the mannerisms, the game, just the assassin mentality, and just like his will and desire to not be defeated, no matter like the odds, so also, carlos, you can appreciate this. Sometimes I just lock in with the mamba mentality doing this DIY.

Speaker 2: 1:00:52

I do, I do, I was gonna say I, with the Mamba mentality doing this DIY I do. I was going to say I listen to Mamba mentality.

Speaker 4: 1:00:57

You just got to I don't know vision. This is going to get done. There's nothing you can do to stop me. Number four is Scottie Pippen Did a book report on Scottie Pippen. Just loved his versatility and just a huge Chicago Bulls fan going on on. Scottie Pippen Just loved his versatility and just a huge Chicago Bulls fan going on. But just loved his versatility right In terms of this, guy can do everything that you want him to do on the court.

Speaker 1: 1:01:29

MJ's the greatest, but there'd be no MJ without Scottie.

Speaker 4: 1:01:32

Yeah, exactly that. Yeah, I love the team like it was dynamic they had that energy.

Speaker 2: 1:01:40

That's some extra excitement from the Chicago delegation that's right and me and me.

Speaker 4: 1:01:50

I love a team or a duo who can just dominate in their craft, in their sport, because sustained excellence is difficult. So I've always had this admiration for teams, organizations, people, teammates who have a level of sustained excellence. So there's something about sustaining excellence that has always, like, garnered a lot of respect and admiration from me. So, down to number five, as an FSU proud graduate, I had to throw my favorite football player in and that is Peter Warwick. Right, peter Warwick, the most explosive college football player that I've seen Growing up. One of the reasons I wanted to go to the Florida States because of, like, what he did on the football field, what Warwick Dunn and Charlie Ward and all the FSU greats, but it was just like. This guy is a highlight waiting to happen.

Speaker 4: 1:03:02

Like you think you have him bottled up and whatnot. So Peter Warwick definitely up there in my top five, and that was difficult because I have a ton of athletes I absolutely love, but I had to put Peter Wark in there, that's a great top five.

Speaker 1: 1:03:24

I like that. I see Petty Professor Carlos put in the chat sustained excellence. I like that term a lot. Oh, Petty Professor.

Speaker 2: 1:03:34

Carlos put in the chat sustained excellence.

Speaker 1: 1:03:35

Yes, first time I heard that term. I like that term a lot.

Speaker 2: 1:03:38

We got this. I feel like every podcast we should have. What was the word, what was the phrase?

Speaker 4: 1:03:43

of the podcast Word of the day Sustained excellence.

Speaker 2: 1:03:49

So if y'all want to know how he came up with it, he assessed his top five based on a framework of sustained excellence yes, yeah, that's that's.

Speaker 4: 1:04:00

That's what it is, because you can, you can, you know, like catch lightning in the bottle. Everything happens and you, you win a championship or you win a scoring title or mvp. But that tends to be it. Right, it's like, hey, I done figured this thing out and there's nothing you can do to stop me right. So that sustained excellence, the level of like I'm going to impose my will because I done figured it out and I'm willing to put in the work and if you're not going to work at the same level or intensity that I'm going to work in, I'm going to come out victorious. So it's kind of like the dedication to the craft, the hours that you put in perfecting your craft or whatnot, that's like I have a ton of respect for. Like I can't stand the Patriots right, I was like what?

Speaker 3: 1:04:59

That guy.

Speaker 4: 1:05:00

Tom Brady sustained excellence right. He won a lot in New England and then he goes down and won in Tampa Bay. It's just like the evil empire of the Yankees right. People call it the evil empire, but sustained excellence. I've always had an appreciation for sustained excellence.

Speaker 1: 1:05:26

Yeah, well, thank you so much, dr Ice Daryl.

Speaker 3: 1:05:30

Thank you. Lovely meeting you.

Speaker 4: 1:05:33

Yeah. This was fun.

Speaker 1: 1:05:36

Great way to kick off our first episode Top 5 DEI. This might be a double episode too.

Speaker 2: 1:05:42

We'll edit this out so we can evergreen it, but yeah, it could be a double episode. Nah, we're gonna.

Speaker 1: 1:05:51

Yeah, that's true. So you got any questions for us. We didn't have a studio audience this time.

Speaker 4: 1:06:00

Oh yeah, oh, wow, okay, let me check out of the 10 questions which I'm just joking this is top 5 Dr Ice interviewing us now we've kind of gotten into it, but you know what is the environment like in Texas as a DEI professional, because I know the work you do, jason, I know the work you do, Carlos. I've been following you, ty, on social media as well and Facebook and on LinkedIn. I just want to hear, because it's like text, I look at text. I was like y'all not too far behind in Florida, right, how is it? Do you even feel safe doing the podcast or the work that you're doing?

Speaker 1: 1:06:55

How are you navigating that space? That's a real great question. Considering this podcast, you know I'm like what's going to happen will happen Right, because I guess I'm kind of like you. Just the truth has to get out and it's just frustrating to see everyone misinterpreting what diversity, equity and inclusion is like. I know, carlos, you told me this one time. You were like how can somebody misinterpret or not define the word? The words are what they are and that's exactly what the work is. It's never been any illegal, the EI, so to speak, right and so. So, yeah, I mean with this podcast and like you say, I read, I read the law, read the legislation, and so I can do this. It's no problem. You know, I'm not even going to, I haven't even mentioned my university.

Speaker 1: 1:07:40

This is me in my own personal capacity, outside of the work that I do now. We used to, I used to kind of have it kind of mixed in with the university stuff we did. As far as the mood, the mood is somber. I do know people who are out of work. I do know people who are afraid to speak out. I'm supposed to speak at a panel next week and the director so many people have just fallen off or are canceling. But to your point, daryl, people are changing. People are changing. My students are changing, daryl. People are changing. People are changing. My students are changing.

Speaker 1: 1:08:15

They're being more vocal and trying to discredit the research that I present in class. I'm like what are you talking about? You don't believe it. It's this valid research from good journals. It is what it is Like what? And then I was like, ok, it's too old. Ok, here's a 2023 article, what? It's the same thing. Right, you're getting the same outcomes. It's a real concern about discrimination, exploitation, heteronormativity, all these things. But I know that I'm privileged because I'm a man, even though I don't have privilege because I'm Black. But there is that male privilege that I think that if I were a woman, I probably would not be able to get away with some of the things that I do and say. You know and also know this because I talk to people and I know their experiences. It is concerning we look at like accreditation issues. That is something that people are really concerned about now, especially when I talk to my colleagues in nursing, for example, but I'll let Nurse Ty speak to that.

Speaker 3: 1:09:20

Well, like I was saying earlier, for for health care, the numbers are the numbers. You cannot. Black women are dying at an alarming rate and the numbers have tripled. Dying at an alarming rate, and the numbers have tripled. But the numbers have increased, like ridiculously, even with the change of the abortion access and because doctors are afraid to be like the over compliance you have a lot of people over complying, and so we've had deaths of women that are preventable, preventable. These deaths that are occurring are preventable. And so how is it? It's sad, it's a sad state of affairs, because Black women are dying more.

Speaker 3: 1:10:00

The numbers for the other groups have gotten better, have improved marginally, and so that's what I'm fighting with now is that they're like well, the numbers have improved. No, no, no, no. But if you look at these numbers, these numbers are worse, and so we're coming up against, like they've, funding issues in terms of how are we going? We're still going for it, right, still doing the work, still still applying that effort, but it is. What is it going to look like if the funding, because some of the, a lot of the funding, is affected, a lot of the funding is affected, like NIH grants, a lot of the words that they have chosen to like go with, specifically speak to Black women's health.

Speaker 3: 1:10:52

So I don't see it. I don't see it having a good impact on numbers. I see it being it's gotten worse and I see it being getting worse. And because what I see in hospital because I still work in hospital as well a lot of the time like that term I have not heard that term, I don't think cultural screens, right, I speak, I have a very, I'm very outspoken, right, and when I feel like a patient is not getting the care that they need or deserve, I speak out to those colleagues and coworkers that I'm with at present, right, but I'm only at the bedside every couple of months, right, and so what I see oftentimes are people the nurses that are there providing the care, the doctors that are there providing the care, the administrators that are there in place, in place, they have some real issues with ensuring that the treatment, that the treatment is equal, equitable, equal and equitable and has the positive and good outcome that you would want in a healthcare situation.

Speaker 1: 1:12:13

So it's all bad. And the thing that's weird, that makes it very concerning, is that just when we thought we were able to handle all the SB 17 stuff from the state issue right, and how it relates to the university settings, higher education, you know, the state school then the executive order is all piled and then it's like okay, man, okay, we thought we beat the state thing. Now it's like okay, man, okay, we thought we beat the state thing, now it's at a federal level. Oh my god, like what's the name? Now? What's what's the next strategic move?

Speaker 1: 1:12:39

You know, honestly, I think that is what's really more terrifying for a lot of people than, uh, just the sp17, because then that kind of gives a license to the state to take it even further. As a matter of fact I don't know if it was earlier this week or last week in the Texas Tribune now there's a proposal for legislation to start looking at curriculum and research, yeah, yeah and research. And so that's like okay, man, that's like the final domino, right. But I'm glad that you're on this show. So I'm wondering if we could turn back time and we were able to kind of get in front of this before 2024, 2023, if maybe we wouldn't be in a different situation now. So this is a learning lesson for us all.

Speaker 4: 1:13:36

Yeah, I definitely think this is a learning lesson and I think, particularly in this current environment. A DEI practitioner, researcher your best friend is a civil rights attorney at the moment. Okay, because, ty, even in your situation, people just think you can't do anything specifically tied to race, and that's just inaccurate. You still can have race-based program, but it's these very narrow exceptions. For example, you can still recruit, have these race-based programs if you are in. What the legal phrase is is a traditionally segregated job, right. For example, if you are a construction company and you want to recruit women, right, that is a traditionally segregated job. I think nursing is also one, like if you wanted to recruit more men, since it's like a, you know, traditionally segregated, typically, you know, dominated by women. You just have to be willing to make those arguments. Also, you can have race-specific programs if it is designed to address a past issue of discrimination in the workplace. So if your organization has just been sued for racial discrimination, right, because you're not promoting black people, you can have a program and say this program is tied to remedy this situation that we have.

Speaker 4: 1:15:26

But a lot of people just don't. You know, know that, I didn't know. You know this stuff until I start, you know, reading and educating myself, talking to you know, various attorneys in my personal and professional network, and then you start, you know, it's like we're researchers. You read this one case and then here's this, you know the precedent or the foundational case that kind of set this standard in place. But again, if we're not educated then it's hard to know to your point, jason, what is the next move. But I think, from a strategy standpoint, the next move is anticipating what's going to be in the executive orders and the state bills. So once they're passed you're ready to file a lawsuit. So, although that executive order was issued, like less than what? 72 hours, like there was a legal challenge to that executive order.

Speaker 2: 1:16:34

So yeah, we should not have been surprised by them. They've been saying all along they were kind of written out like oh, this is the playbook oh, here they are.

Speaker 1: 1:16:44

Here's what frightens me, because I think that they knew that and they were using this muscle velocity strategy to distract me in some sort of way that maybe I'm not even aware of yet, or something else that I missed, or something that the media is missing, it's not covering Right, and so that's yeah, that's, that's, that's my concern now, like when I saw it's almost like what's next is about? It's it's, it's rather what's happening now that I don't know what's coming next. It's rather what's happening now that I don't know what's coming next. You know, and so we need to. That's why I'm going to get in contact with these organizations that you mentioned to kind of get a deeper understanding of what are some of the next moves that are happening to combat these DEI opponents.

Speaker 4: 1:17:27

Remember, one of the goals is for you know, DEI proponents, to liveonents, to live in this constant source of trauma. You're in this constant state of trauma and, to your point, jason, it was like boom, we're dealing with SB17 and then we get this executive order. It's done to demoralize because if I can demoralize you, you're not going to fight back.

Speaker 4: 1:17:52

You'll be paralyzed you're going to be paralyzed and you won't even think to challenge what I'm I'm doing because, deep, like they know, like these are unconstitutional, they don't care, they just got the power and I'm going to do this and see what, how you're going to respond, but I I think once um to respond, but I think once everyone is looking forward to the oral arguments that's going to be made in Florida in March for their most recent version of the DEI bill. So if that one gets struck down or issued a preliminary or permanent injunction, that's going to be the linchpin for all these other state bills to play. So you do have to understand the strategy and where you file and what type of. You know the judge that's going to hear you, because what's happening in Florida the ACLU they filed it in the jurisdiction of the same judge who struck down the Stop Wolf Act, right? So it's kind of like game, recognized game you are using.

Speaker 4: 1:19:03

You know these conservative legislators. We're going to bring the lawsuit in these favorable jurisdictions. So the judge who oversees that isn't is an obama um appointee, and one of the reasons I guess one theory out there why we haven't seen anything in texas as the moment is because I guess, uh, the, the fifth circuit. Well, whatever that is likely to hear the Texas case they was like this is, you know, an extremely conservative um jurisdiction, so it can be problematic if you get an unfavorable ruling. So I think everyone is is waiting to see what happens um in Florida and Alabama, because once those dominoes fall, the other ones will fall because they're just copy and paste jobs. So if those that get struck down you know first and 14th Amendment violations, everyone has to play a book in terms of these are the legal arguments that you make, because again, it seems like they just can't get around the viewpoint restriction argument.

Speaker 2: 1:20:17

But you got to keep hope alive yeah, I was actually going to say you know, in my space, you know I'm like this hybrid. You know I'm a scholar, practitioner, but I'm a free agent. I call myself a free agent of change. And so, um, I, I experienced, and I saw the writing on the wall. You know what's happening in in the private sector. Now I tell people, hey, what don't get, don't get too relaxed. Whatever you see happening in universe, it's we go together. You know, it's like whatever happens here is going to try to. It's like, okay, bet, we got this All right, now let's try to infiltrate some aspects of the private sector. And so, with you know, what I do now as a full-time consultant and advisor and researcher and empowerment coach is exactly what you said there is hope and I feel like even just being part of this podcast. So there has been.

Speaker 2: 1:21:21

I've gone through feeling the fear, feeling the frustration, feeling the hurt, just feeling the pain. It's feeling the like, oh, like. Every day I'm being gaslit. I know that this work, I know, oh, you don't even care about a definition to now I'm being gaslit. I know that this work, I know, oh, you don't even care about a definition to now I'm feeling empowered and I feel like you know someone else had asked me are you afraid to do a podcast like this, given a lot of these battles are being fought in the media, in social media, like yes, because I'm not alone, I have have Ty, I have Jason, I have bold, courageous leaders like yourself, dr Ice, who we can collectively inform and educate, an audience that I may not be able to reach if I was just by myself, as a single thought leader or a single thought person, where everything that I can do can be, like you know, misconstrued and torn apart, but I don't think anyone's going to succeed coming for all of us all at once you know that's right.

Speaker 1: 1:22:28

doing something like this, putting ourselves out there, takes a lot, you know. And on that note, we don't want to take up all of your time, your precious time, because we know that you're probably going to leave and then put out another paper Tomorrow. I'll be like, yeah, I got another publication. So we know that's how you do so here. Let's get back to your writing. We've run out of time. I want to thank you again, daryl, dr Ice, it's good knowing you. Thanks for coming up, showing up.

Speaker 4: 1:23:04

You know this. Yeah, this, this was fun. Thank you for for the opportunity. It's always good to to to talk about, you know, dei and the period that we are in is definitely some significantly challenges, significant challenges, but I also think there are some golden opportunities in this moment, understanding that you know there is a resistance. There is, you know, people who truly believe and see the value of this work, and I just think we're just naturally more resilient and more tenacious than this new wave of you know, anti-dei, anti-wokeness that happens, that's happening, but I definitely appreciate the opportunity to come on and be a guest in Top 5 DEI Podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:24:00

Thank you so much. Thank you so much and for our audience. If you enjoyed tonight's podcast, please make sure you share, subscribe and like, and also feel free to email us at top5deipodcast at gmailcom. Good night everybody.

Speaker 2: 1:24:21

Good night, good morning, good afternoon.

Speaker 1: 1:24:24

Enjoy your day, peace out.